JoomlaWorks

96 comments

• marnijderr 05 Feb 2011
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  First let me say this post brought back nightmares of the Joomla 1.0 - 1.5 issues. Not because they are the same, but because things weren't handled very business like. There are ways to communicate your plans to your customers, and that is what they are, customers, who don't want to be scared or confused. Customers rely on valid and professional explanations and details to make informed decisions. They rely on people who are more knowledgeable or closer to the facts than they are. Inform them, but don't postulate, scare and confuse them.

  Technology will continue to move forward at a pace maybe we aren't all happy with, but it will continue to move forward. It has to. Do I agree with the 6-mo release cycle, absolutely not. I think this is a huge mistake, unless it is seamless and transparent to the end user.

  As to minimizing the improvements in 1.6? ACL and nested categories are two of the most important features my clients have waited for and desperately need. These are not features to be dismissed, and say you don't need them.

  I also agree with Torettox84. I did not presume K2 would support 1.6 for any other reason that you said it would. You advertised it would, you blogged and posted that it would. So the tone of this post has me a bit disconcerted.

  I use K2 on every site I create, because my clients are not developers, do not have a staff to manage there sites, and because K2 is simply the easiest for them to use and understand.

  So will I be upset I can't use K2 on the sites I am upgrading, sure, but I won't rant about it. This is a business and a business decision and that is my only suggestion. That instead of alarming or angering your users, simply say it is a business decision. That you can't support 1.6 at this time. You need to investigate the ramifications of 1.7 and 1.8 and what they mean to the community. There is nothing wrong with saying, unfortunately we need to post-pone updating K2 until later for the following reasons, or even if you planned to drop it altogether. It is your extension and your business. Nothing wrong with that.

  Also introducing the Nooku subject should really be an entirely separate post. Less tech savvy users won't even know what you are talking about, and again panic can become viral because of their lack of knowledge in understanding this information.

  I know other extension and template developers probably feel the way you do, and it is up to them to make their business decisions. Personally I was amazed how many more were updated so quickly compared to last time.

  Sorry for the long post, but it is so confusing to my clients to read this kind of information and then emails and calls start flying as everyone goes into a panic. Some of my clients need the new features, so do not. It is a case by case basis. Just like your decisions.

  I sincerely appreciate K2 and all it has to offer. Do I want to continue to use it? Of course I do, but I also must make business decisions and those decisions mean over half my sites need to upgrade to 1.6. But that is my business and my decision.

  I am not trying to rant. Just offer an opinion. I do want to thank you for taking a poll to find out what your users are doing, this will help you in deciding what is best for K2 and the K2 community. That is far more professional and less inflamatory.

  
  
• intercisa 05 Feb 2011
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  I love using K2. Simply I could not design any websites for my clients without it (or with a proper CCK and a decent media manager). As Fotis wrote in his latest K2 community newsletter: "Many "key" people in the Joomla community consider version 1.6 to be a transitional release and that 1.7 will be more "rock solid", as Joomla 1.5 has proven to be the fast few years."

  So I suppose that we could wait upgrading till 1.7 release, there is no rush for us to upgrade to 1.6 my existing websites powered by K2 CCK.

  But when we talk about building new sites I would consider using Joomla 1.6 because of the ACL, new module features and sub-template feature and of course the cleaner xhtml output.

  Building new sites with 1.6 but without K2 is quite tough but I believe I could manage it until the K2 would be ported to the solid 1.7.

  As a frontend disigner and Joomla webmaster the power of Nooku server sounds great but I could nothing to do with it. As Johan Janssens the Lead Architect of Nooku said at the JoomlaNight in Sweden it is for Joomla devlopers and developer community not for frontend users and end users.

  Thank you JoomlaWorks to asking us about it and for the poll as well!

  Best regards,
  Robert

  
  
• jimmybang 05 Feb 2011
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  @fotis - The tweet was less than a month ago after 1.6 stable - what factors have changed?

  My point is that you gave no indication that K2 would not be supported in 1.6 and in fact quite the opposite - your community has been misled!

  
  
• Torettox84 05 Feb 2011
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  This is the third f'ing time I'll try to post, so I'll be brief.

  Fotis, I understand that Joomla 1.6 might be a "pain in the ass" to develop for. And yeah, OSM's communication just blows (Still waiting for the "Why should site builders migrate to 1.6 blog post...)

  When I read how you continuously talk about Nooku, I doubt if my "comment" is going to change anything, but... Joomla must move forward. And it can't do that without the components and extentions that make Joomla great. I mean, look at the core files. How is it different from "Wordpress" other that the fact that you and other people build truly kick-ass components that make Joomla stand out from the "crowd"?

  Joomla has got a long way ahead of it. But despite all the "framework" bullshit I'm hearing, Joomla is worthless without it's "improvements". And like it or not, but K2 is a big improvement ;-)

  
  
• PufferMedia 05 Feb 2011
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  Where's the question 'Would you rather take advantage of all the advanced, updated features that K2 offers or flounder around in the mess that is Joomla?' ;-)

  Seriously (and finally), the poll should better reflect the lay of the land. But the issue is less with the websites I've already built —like you say, we've got enough time before we panic to figure out how to upgrade/migrate. But what about the website I'm starting next week, or the one I'm starting next month. If I want to take advantage of any of the improvements in the Joomla core does that mean I should just forget about K2? You've given me no real answer to that other than 'It works on 1.5 stable and that is good enough for now.'

  Dude, if you were to gracefully degrade K2 on Joomla I would not fault you. It is what it is. I was just giving the unvarnished perspective from my dim little corner of the Joomla universe why this is seems to me a shot across the bow. I hope that I am proved wrong.

  
  
• Fotis Evangelou 05 Feb 2011
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  @Chris not so fast... let's see what the community says first ;)
  
• Fotis Evangelou 05 Feb 2011
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  Jimmy, yes, and I believe in the tooth fairy as well. What's your point? We express our opinion based on given factors at a given time. Things change... Now, let's see what the community says >> http://community.getk2.org/#pollFor16" rel="nofollow">http://community.getk2.org/#pollFor16
  
• Chris Raymond 05 Feb 2011
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  Fotis, you have left me with no choice. I'm using my Jedi Mind tricks on you now. In a few minutes you will be walking away from the Cafe Racer and sitting down in front of your computer recoding K2 for J! 1.6.
  
• jimmybang 05 Feb 2011
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  While Joomla 1.6 is in a beta phase, we will not make official and development copies that work with it. Once Joomla 1.6 goes "RC" we will release a related version of K2. Please avoid developing production websites with Joomla 1.6 as it's still work in progress and may change significantly on the way to a stable release.
  June 11, 2010
  http://community.getk2.org/forum/topics/cant-install-k2-on-joomla-16#cid-3536014" rel="nofollow">http://community.getk2.org/forum/topics/cant-install-k2-on-joomla-16#cid-3536014:Comment:60674
  Fotis Evangelou

  @nilmedia No, K2 for 1.6 will be ready early Feb 2011
  https://twitter.com/joomlaworks/status/24525321768280064" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/joomlaworks/status/24525321768280064
  Jan 10, 2011
  @joomlaworks

  
  
• Fotis Evangelou 05 Feb 2011
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  Puffer, I always want to use the best possible solution. If people clearly want 1.6, we have no option to support 1.6. But I do wanna see "how soon" people will want 1.6, given that it has a 6 month life span. We were assured by the Joomla team that the path from 1.5 to 1.6 would not be hard. Au contraire! So why shouldn't this happen with 1.6 to 1.7?

  Lots of questions remain unanswered and I'd love to see the Joomla Leadership Team take a stand and communicate things properly, while at the same time committing to specific plans.

  
  
• PufferMedia 05 Feb 2011
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  @Fotis Well then, man, why didn't you just say that in your post? I just did a search for 'stable' and nowhere in your text did you anything about 1.6 not being stable enough as an issue. There's stuff about 'Many developers have expressed doubts about 1.6...' and how pointless the ACL is to most users, and hey! look at the new shiny framework that will make it so much better. I see you've added an update that more explicitly says what your development plan is, but to me you still seem to be hedging in regard to K2 on Joomla.

  What I'm reading is —still— more or less, 'JoomlaWorks will still develop Joomla extensions. K2 may get upgraded at some point but most likely will be adapted for Nooku Server.'

  Again, fine, dude. It's your baby. I respect that the work you gave to us. I would definitely check out a custom K2 install. And absolutely I respect that people thoughts and directions and plans can and do change. But you did ask for reactions and I gave you mine.

  
  
• Fotis Evangelou 05 Feb 2011
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  I can do something more fair to all sides...

  Poll for K2 & Joomla 1.6 >> http://community.getk2.org/#pollFor16" rel="nofollow">http://community.getk2.org/#pollFor16

  
  
• jimmybang 05 Feb 2011
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  @Fotis - You could always delete the blog post and we can all pretend this never happened.
  
• Fotis Evangelou 05 Feb 2011
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  Sorry folks (Kai, Jimmy, Puffer), but the points you make are either not valid or over exaggerating... No end for K2, no abandoning 1.6 as JoomlaWorks... You made a whole lotta stuff up... Sometimes you don't need to read between the lines, things are plain obvious: I consider 1.6 not to be stable enough to port K2 into it. End of story. If things evolve in 2, 3, 4 months, then I'll change course 180 degrees.

  But until then, if you value your content, there is no reason to rush in for 1.6. Plain and simple.

  
  
• marcocorro 05 Feb 2011
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  Puffermedia says it all. I feel for Fotis' arguments, but you've got to go with the flow or be left behind. I think you're going to regret not porting K2 to J! 1.6 Fotis'. And you know I'm a big fan. Too bad I can't dedicate a chapter in my new book to it now...
  
• jimmybang 05 Feb 2011
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  Well said!
  
• PufferMedia 05 Feb 2011
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  Ha ha. Among the typos that got through I typed Brain instead of Brian. Which kind of works too if you think about it.
  
• PufferMedia 05 Feb 2011
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  Okay, here it goes. Brace yourselves. Let me preface by saying two obvious but important things.

  1. I'm a front-end developer/designer. I am not a PHP coder, programmer or back-end developer; I do not have the knowledge, skills or time to write my own extensions. I use Joomla (and to a lesser extent WordPress) precisely for that reason. I am an extension 'customer' or 'end user.'

  2. Thank you for K2! It's a great extension. I can easily remember the frustration of yet again bumping up against the limits of com_content then realizing I could take care of most of my needs in one fell swoop, all without having to configure and maintain 6 to 8 different extensions, each with its own take on how Joomla should work. At last I could provide users something that felt and functioned more like WordPress (structure, function & admin layout) without wrestling with the layout and over-rides of 24 separate extensions. I don't use it on every site I build but it's good to know it's in my tool box.

  And far be it from me to presume to tell you how to run your business; I can only imagine how much work it is to develop and maintain a code base as extensive and well-factored as K2 (or Akeeba or Simple Image Gallery or PraiseAdmin or XMAP or etc) in an open source environment. So I'm *not* intimating that upgrading would a) be 'easy' b) make good business sense —I have no idea and I take you at your word. You owe me nothing and I expect nothing more than that.

  That said... ;-)

  I hope that people who are using this a platform to air their larger grievances do consider the 'end users' who may be frustrated that they will have to make some hard decisions in regard to their Joomla/K2 websites. I am among their ranks.

  Let's be frank. This is about way more than just an accelerated development schedule that doesn't allow time for eco-system of Joomla to grow. I'm know there are legitimate concerns, but a line is being drawn in the sand and we're essentially being asked to take sides. Right? This announcement strikes me more as a protest than a roadmap. I get the feeling no matter what the end results of 1.6 had been JoomlaWorks would have had enough reason to halt K2 development until either Fotis made his point or started moving away from Joomla altogether.

  It's no secret JoomlaWorks (and others) have a history of a sometimes contentious relationship with the development of Joomla, right? I'm not an insider or anything but I read between the lines on twitter and blogs and groups and it's not hard to half figure out. But the other half of me just doesn't care all that much, I just do what I can to do what I can to see that Joomla grows and has great extensions so I can build websites.

  And, yep, Brain does his part and points out that K2 is GPL, and yea! for that —I wouldn't be using it otherwise. I don't think anyone is arguing that Fotis/JoomlaWorks 'owes' us anything, or that the project is dead. But K2 is not some largely generic extension that lives on SourceForge and uses a rhuk_milkyway template as its project website. To some extent Fotis uses K2 as an extension (if you will) of JoomlaWorks. He built and hosts a community and promoted K2 as a viable alternative to com_content.

  And, yes, way back when K2 first came into popularity and I adopted it for a couple of my sites, Fotis, you gave every impression that when 1.6 was released —and I recall specifically looking up discussions about this— that you had every intention of upgrading K2 along with it. Of course, you would always point out that one didn't 'need' 1.6 if one used K2 —obviously, as far as you are concerned, K2 gives you everything 1.6 could and more and better.

  Good for you, you should be proud. It's good work. But, let's face it, isn't everyone using K2 to extend Joomla and *not* using Joomla so they can build in K2? I don't want the Joomla core developers spending their time adding comments and tags and social crap to com_content; I want K2 to elegantly extend my content so I can pick and choose the best solution for the needs of my website. I want Joomla to provide a good, well-documented API that allows a talented developer such as yourself to improve upon Joomla in ways that are important to my projects. Sometimes this is content, sometimes it documents, sometimes it is galleries, sometimes sales... etc.

  Let me be on point here, because it's related: as someone who has relied on K2 to structure and extend content there are some other not insignificant drawbacks to using K2 at present. Beyond the fact that 'bypassing' com_content can cause compatibility/configuration issues and client confusion ('Oh, it's not an article? What is K2? I thought we were using Joomla?'), there is a lot of 'branding' that K2 does and it is fairly 'core' to the program. So a K2 site will always be pretty easy to spot as a K2 site. (Fortunately it's hard to make K2 look bad). All well and good except for when you're trying to streamline your html/css and you have all these K2 classes/ids.

  But further all that, I have hard time believing you really think that 1.7 is going to be so vastly different from 1.6 that it's going to involve you having to *re-code* whatever work it takes to get K2 1.6 ready. I don't doubt your next upgrade is going to be a lot of PITA coding, but seriously, you think efforts towards 1.6 compatibility would have to be thrown out by the time we get to 1.7? Even if, by some wild chance, we get there by the end of this summer, a couple of months work now is going to get us closer to a K2 update? Or are you just trying to make the point?

  Also, this 100 in 100,000,000 straw-man bit about the ACL is so specious as to be kind of insulting to address. I'll guess and say most of the people who use K2 to build sites are not so much the same ones that want sophisticated, granular control for those sites. Believe me, I had a Joomla 1.5 project that hit a wall because the limitations of the ACL and how weirdly any extension available did an end-run around this fact. People may be griping about com_content or whatever now but a few years ago it was all about the crappy ACL and if Joomla would just improve that it could be a real contender. K2 to may have figured out a way to get around this but it is not an acceptable solution for 1.5's ACL limitations for anything other than basic K2 deployments. And just because you don't think nested categories was worth getting 1.6 out the door 'cause K2 already had them doesn't mean this wasn't an important hurdle to get over. Having to use K2 simply to get your categories to match your menus is overkill.

  But, as said, it's your code and your business so it's your choice to make. I can only speak as a user who is slightly effected by the outcome of said choice. And indeed, I'm free to fork the code or maintain it on my own, perhaps try to find some people to help build our own version of K2 for 1.6 and 1.6.1... and 1.7 and 1.7.1 and onward. So, yea! for the GPL. Believe me, I would love to have a K2 version that integrated with Joomla more to my liking! ;-) But, let's be honest, that's highly unlikely.

  More likely, while I see where this goes and try to suss out how deep the rifts in the Joomla project are, I'll probably end up building future sites in Joomla 1.6 with a selection of other extensions to replace the functionality that I'm losing with K2, and think about the which way to migrate content if the time comes and K2 is officially forked off to some other platform. On my current sites I can hang fire until that time when security fixes become an issue, but I have some thinking to do with the sites I have in the pipeline. Yes, 1.5 is a perfectly stable platform on which to build, but it still has shitty categories and user permissions.

  
  
• Zaio12 05 Feb 2011
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  I don't think this is corect i read the announcement and it is seas

  Joomla 1.5 is a Long Term Support (LTS) release. This means that it will be supported for approximately 15 more months. That makes the estimated date for End of Life of Joomla 1.5 to be April 11, 2012.

  I can't find that the nothing fo 1.7

  
  
• jimmybang 05 Feb 2011
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  The 6 month release cycle could be a good thing to keep Joomla progressing into the future and maintain a momentum providing backwards compatibility is maintained and support periods are increased.

  But I think there needs to be a pause for the time being. The documentation on all levels is a mess (newbie’s must be really confused), there is no clear roadmap and promised features of 1.6 are missing or incomplete.

  Time should be taken to:

  - Fix the minor 1.6 bugs (why was there only one RC when it was obviously was not ready to go stable?)

  - Write/rewrite detailed documentation on classes, their possible use and examples (ideally written the by developers that worked on 1.6 and reviewed by a non-developer to determine usability).

  - The ideas in the ideas pool should be reviewed (also many users are requesting features available in Joomla 1.6 – a documentation problem).

  - A clear roadmap.

  - A clear development process that encourages more developers to get involved (good documentation will also help more developers join the project).

  I would be very surprised if 1.7 is released on time.

  As for a 1.6 version of K2 not being released, I’m disappointed; mainly because it has been promised and not delivered.

  New features in Joomla 1.6 are unlikely to disappear in 1.7. Joomlaworks will still need port all the 1.6 features and class name changes to 1.7.

  Wouldn’t spending four weeks developing K2 for J!1.6 will save three weeks of J!1.7 K2 development? Is Joomlaworks abandoning it's own community?